A lot of us were taught that Paul’s gospel was about punishment transfer. But what if he was telling a much bigger story—one about union, not substitution?
Thank you for this! Your perspective is so valuable for all of us on this deconstruction journey. I found your article very relatable to my own understanding! I'm curious if you've read the book The Universal Christ by Richard Rohr? As someone who also identifies more with Christian mysticism, that book put into words what I had long felt but struggled to articulate to other Christians who would challenge me on this topic. And based on the little bit I've read from you so far, I think there might be some alignment with your perspective. :) Thank you!
Serena, The Universal Christ also helped me to begin to articulate what I too had long sensed but not had the language to express, and honestly still struggle to express. It's a big shift in thinking.
I can relate to the continued difficulties expressing. It is a lot to digest and translate into conversation when, as you said, it's a complete paradigm shift for many. I've actually just picked it back up to reread for this reason :)
Thank you ! This is big. And exactly along the lines of my thinking. After 50 years of evangelical teaching, I've had enough, and I can't go to church or bible study any more .
As far as finding a joyful Christian 'mystic ' community goes, that could be lovely, but perhaps that's another blessing yet to come on my journey.
This was really eye opening. So much of this makes sense. It especially makes more sense than what I was taught growing up and absolutely doesn't negate anyone as being a Christian if they believe this. Thank you for this.
Thanks Joe, wonderful article. I recently wrote an essay reading together Romans 5:6-11 and Romans 6:1-11. This really brings home Paul's theology of participation. As you point out, Christ dying 'for us' doesn't necessarily mean 'instead of us'. Paul surely isn't thinking about a straight swap like in a football match. Rather Christ died 'for us' and 'with us', as one of us, so we can share in new life in him. Thanks again.
No. It was for one of my masters modules on Paul. If you have an email address I'd be happy to share it. It's certainly no masterpiece but it may give you a bit of food for thought!
I grew up with so much guilt from those pastors and youth ministers who professed that because I was such a god awful person that Jesus had to die for me. Me, the boy who felt deeply and cared deeply put Jesus on the cross somehow. It’s a wonder I still love the church, as flawed as it is, Jesus and God.
It’s the shame and control tactics that led me down a similar path of holistic justice, solidarity, and mysticism. Jesus is with us intimately and that is what I’ve known from a young age. You’ve given me permission to say that I don’t need that other guilt laden and manipulative story of Jesus that others have impressed upon me. Thank you 🙏
One of the earliest interpretations of the cross was the ransom theory correct Joe? That the payment Christ made was to the devil. Not to the Father. Origen (3rd century) & even Irenaeus taught this as early as the 2nd century. The theory dominated early Christian thought up through the early medieval period.
Joe, it just occurred to me that early teachings about baptism were that it was an exorcism ritual. This was because of the ransom theory. Tertullian (early 3rd century): spoke of baptism as a moment when “we are freed from the dominion of the devil.” Cyril of Jerusalem described baptismal rites as a literal exorcism—the candidate was “delivered from the power of darkness.”
Yes! This perspective is the Gospel of Jesus bringing God’s love to everyone. Joe, this elaboration really helps understand Paul as well as Jesus. Would you be providing any references to other writers who agree with this theological and biblical perspective? Just wondering as I think you are not alone with this theological perspective.
I've been exploring the idea of universalism lately, and I find it to be a much more compelling belief that Jesus died to bring us all together in the family of God, that the intent is for everyone to be saved. This idea that maybe there was no atoning, just joining, is really eye opening too. There's just so much more to explore and think about when you get beyond the "what you were taught is true, so sit down and shut up" phase.
Alleluia. I wrote recently about such issues and found a backlash from my diaconal colleagues, saying that they did not agree. I had asked for us all to live on that faith playing field. There's original sin and Original Blessing, there's PSA and many other atonement theories. What resonates with you is important. In the UK, there's a short series entitled Pilgrimage on the TV (BBC2) where 7 people of different faiths walk to a pilgrimage church in Switzerland from Austria, supposedly a walk of 300 km. There, a Muslim says that: she didn't move away from her faith, she gave it up but then reconnected without the hijab, and the control she felt that was imposed. She concludes the series by saying that what keeps her going is her newly found faith and hope... (If you can watch it, it's great : https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b09w7lc0/pilgrimage)
Okay cool... I admit I've come to look at Paul with questions but can we go back to Leviticus for a minute? Why any kind of animal killing? I know that's probably an entire semester but... why? And also, my modern American Jewish friends don't kill a goat, they eat a brisket or salmon, which makes sense and probably tastes better but like... I don't understand how killing a goat translates into ritual purity. And how was that practice discontinued? Is it too off-topic to ask about the killing at all? If I just need to do my homework and pick up "Misreading the Gospel with Western Eyes" (it's on the list) then that's fair.
My knee jerk reaction is that animals represented wealth and security to them. They were food, millk, wool, things you could trade for other things. I am an animal lover so it's hard to read that stuff sometimes, but that's my take. But that is why it was a "sacrifice" for them. It was basically how we'd see money.
So the idea is "I've committed offense, and I'm going to pay for/atone for that, and it's going to cost me ... like I'm going to feel it." Meaning this is about regret originating in the person making the sacrifice than about God making a wrathful demand?
The idea of propitiation for sins to appease an angry deity is a common ritualistic pattern found in Bronze Age religions, even Judaism. It’s about purity.
Purity is an obsession still today in Islam & Hindu religions. Christians practice baptism & Jews participate in ceremony bathing. Koser laws are about purity.
The most unclean in the OT era was a woman’s period. It represented a curse & a punishment for Eve’s sin.
Virginity (sexual purity) was also an obsession. But for women. Many cultures sacrificed female virgins in fertility rituals. Mary’s virginity is a crucial issue making Christianity partially a fertility cult. Early interpretations of original sin equated it with Eve’s sexual temptation of Adam.
I’d argue our obsession with female virginity in evangelicalism has its roots in this teaching.
Some evolutionary anthropologists have made arguments as to why purity & virginity were crucial to human survival. These are very interesting.
I’m leaning recently, yes, my sins are forgiven through faith in Christ. But there’s a bigger picture. If I’m truly following Jesus, I’m transformed. I put off my old self and become new in Christ. A faithful servant. A disciple. A man grieved by injustice, compelled to serve others so that the kingdom of God might be revealed on earth.
“The lamb in Revelation conquers not through wrath, but through love and suffering.”
Tell me more about this piece. “Wrath” is poured out by four different angels (if I’m recalling correctly. I’m too tired to pull my Bible out tonight, but I just studied this in my (*ahem*) BSF study. Which, btw, hasn’t sat well with me all year. Not because it’s Revelation, but because it’s BSF and I’m just not there in my head or heart. I’m studying the Bible with friends. 😎) I digress… no wrath? I’ll look it up tomorrow. But what say you now? 🙂 I appreciate you, Joe. It’s all very compelling.
God gives us advice on how to live our best lives. Humans turn it into a reward/punishment system like humans do. Sin harms us. God doesn’t need to pile on. Sins are not transgressions against God that we have to pay for. It’s just us, in our arrogance, ignoring his advice. When we ignore his advice, bad things can happen because it was good advice. The idea that God created man with an imperfect intellect with access to only incomplete information (else we would be God) and is so aggrieved that we turned out to be exactly what would be expected that someone has to die to appease him seems ludicrous to me. The sacrificial system was a human invention, seeking to appease God. God as a petty tyrant is a pretty common understanding that I don’t agree with. It does explain the Christian attraction to certain public officials
Thank you for this! Your perspective is so valuable for all of us on this deconstruction journey. I found your article very relatable to my own understanding! I'm curious if you've read the book The Universal Christ by Richard Rohr? As someone who also identifies more with Christian mysticism, that book put into words what I had long felt but struggled to articulate to other Christians who would challenge me on this topic. And based on the little bit I've read from you so far, I think there might be some alignment with your perspective. :) Thank you!
Serena, The Universal Christ also helped me to begin to articulate what I too had long sensed but not had the language to express, and honestly still struggle to express. It's a big shift in thinking.
I can relate to the continued difficulties expressing. It is a lot to digest and translate into conversation when, as you said, it's a complete paradigm shift for many. I've actually just picked it back up to reread for this reason :)
Thank you ! This is big. And exactly along the lines of my thinking. After 50 years of evangelical teaching, I've had enough, and I can't go to church or bible study any more .
As far as finding a joyful Christian 'mystic ' community goes, that could be lovely, but perhaps that's another blessing yet to come on my journey.
This was really eye opening. So much of this makes sense. It especially makes more sense than what I was taught growing up and absolutely doesn't negate anyone as being a Christian if they believe this. Thank you for this.
🙏🏼
Thanks Joe, wonderful article. I recently wrote an essay reading together Romans 5:6-11 and Romans 6:1-11. This really brings home Paul's theology of participation. As you point out, Christ dying 'for us' doesn't necessarily mean 'instead of us'. Paul surely isn't thinking about a straight swap like in a football match. Rather Christ died 'for us' and 'with us', as one of us, so we can share in new life in him. Thanks again.
Thanks Paul. Is your essay online?
No. It was for one of my masters modules on Paul. If you have an email address I'd be happy to share it. It's certainly no masterpiece but it may give you a bit of food for thought!
I grew up with so much guilt from those pastors and youth ministers who professed that because I was such a god awful person that Jesus had to die for me. Me, the boy who felt deeply and cared deeply put Jesus on the cross somehow. It’s a wonder I still love the church, as flawed as it is, Jesus and God.
It’s the shame and control tactics that led me down a similar path of holistic justice, solidarity, and mysticism. Jesus is with us intimately and that is what I’ve known from a young age. You’ve given me permission to say that I don’t need that other guilt laden and manipulative story of Jesus that others have impressed upon me. Thank you 🙏
Thank you for sharing your story. I’m very happy for you to find some peace and freedom
Great post, Joe! I wrote something kind of similar last Easter. It’s good to find others who follow the same line of thinking.
https://open.substack.com/pub/notesforneighbors/p/the-power-of-a-preposition
❤️
Thank you. Keep going. This is important.
❤️
One of the earliest interpretations of the cross was the ransom theory correct Joe? That the payment Christ made was to the devil. Not to the Father. Origen (3rd century) & even Irenaeus taught this as early as the 2nd century. The theory dominated early Christian thought up through the early medieval period.
That’s is true, my friend. I didn’t think to add it in here but it’s fascinating—and weird 😂
Joe, it just occurred to me that early teachings about baptism were that it was an exorcism ritual. This was because of the ransom theory. Tertullian (early 3rd century): spoke of baptism as a moment when “we are freed from the dominion of the devil.” Cyril of Jerusalem described baptismal rites as a literal exorcism—the candidate was “delivered from the power of darkness.”
Yes! This perspective is the Gospel of Jesus bringing God’s love to everyone. Joe, this elaboration really helps understand Paul as well as Jesus. Would you be providing any references to other writers who agree with this theological and biblical perspective? Just wondering as I think you are not alone with this theological perspective.
I've been exploring the idea of universalism lately, and I find it to be a much more compelling belief that Jesus died to bring us all together in the family of God, that the intent is for everyone to be saved. This idea that maybe there was no atoning, just joining, is really eye opening too. There's just so much more to explore and think about when you get beyond the "what you were taught is true, so sit down and shut up" phase.
Alleluia. I wrote recently about such issues and found a backlash from my diaconal colleagues, saying that they did not agree. I had asked for us all to live on that faith playing field. There's original sin and Original Blessing, there's PSA and many other atonement theories. What resonates with you is important. In the UK, there's a short series entitled Pilgrimage on the TV (BBC2) where 7 people of different faiths walk to a pilgrimage church in Switzerland from Austria, supposedly a walk of 300 km. There, a Muslim says that: she didn't move away from her faith, she gave it up but then reconnected without the hijab, and the control she felt that was imposed. She concludes the series by saying that what keeps her going is her newly found faith and hope... (If you can watch it, it's great : https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episodes/b09w7lc0/pilgrimage)
Okay cool... I admit I've come to look at Paul with questions but can we go back to Leviticus for a minute? Why any kind of animal killing? I know that's probably an entire semester but... why? And also, my modern American Jewish friends don't kill a goat, they eat a brisket or salmon, which makes sense and probably tastes better but like... I don't understand how killing a goat translates into ritual purity. And how was that practice discontinued? Is it too off-topic to ask about the killing at all? If I just need to do my homework and pick up "Misreading the Gospel with Western Eyes" (it's on the list) then that's fair.
My knee jerk reaction is that animals represented wealth and security to them. They were food, millk, wool, things you could trade for other things. I am an animal lover so it's hard to read that stuff sometimes, but that's my take. But that is why it was a "sacrifice" for them. It was basically how we'd see money.
Or perhaps, we don't sacrifice humans? Many other cultures did, regularly.
So the idea is "I've committed offense, and I'm going to pay for/atone for that, and it's going to cost me ... like I'm going to feel it." Meaning this is about regret originating in the person making the sacrifice than about God making a wrathful demand?
The idea of propitiation for sins to appease an angry deity is a common ritualistic pattern found in Bronze Age religions, even Judaism. It’s about purity.
Purity is an obsession still today in Islam & Hindu religions. Christians practice baptism & Jews participate in ceremony bathing. Koser laws are about purity.
The most unclean in the OT era was a woman’s period. It represented a curse & a punishment for Eve’s sin.
Virginity (sexual purity) was also an obsession. But for women. Many cultures sacrificed female virgins in fertility rituals. Mary’s virginity is a crucial issue making Christianity partially a fertility cult. Early interpretations of original sin equated it with Eve’s sexual temptation of Adam.
I’d argue our obsession with female virginity in evangelicalism has its roots in this teaching.
Some evolutionary anthropologists have made arguments as to why purity & virginity were crucial to human survival. These are very interesting.
Sorry about making this weird!
[pondering]
I’m leaning recently, yes, my sins are forgiven through faith in Christ. But there’s a bigger picture. If I’m truly following Jesus, I’m transformed. I put off my old self and become new in Christ. A faithful servant. A disciple. A man grieved by injustice, compelled to serve others so that the kingdom of God might be revealed on earth.
Love! Can you write more on the whole concept of sin and transgression? Would love to glean more from you on that. :)
“The lamb in Revelation conquers not through wrath, but through love and suffering.”
Tell me more about this piece. “Wrath” is poured out by four different angels (if I’m recalling correctly. I’m too tired to pull my Bible out tonight, but I just studied this in my (*ahem*) BSF study. Which, btw, hasn’t sat well with me all year. Not because it’s Revelation, but because it’s BSF and I’m just not there in my head or heart. I’m studying the Bible with friends. 😎) I digress… no wrath? I’ll look it up tomorrow. But what say you now? 🙂 I appreciate you, Joe. It’s all very compelling.
God gives us advice on how to live our best lives. Humans turn it into a reward/punishment system like humans do. Sin harms us. God doesn’t need to pile on. Sins are not transgressions against God that we have to pay for. It’s just us, in our arrogance, ignoring his advice. When we ignore his advice, bad things can happen because it was good advice. The idea that God created man with an imperfect intellect with access to only incomplete information (else we would be God) and is so aggrieved that we turned out to be exactly what would be expected that someone has to die to appease him seems ludicrous to me. The sacrificial system was a human invention, seeking to appease God. God as a petty tyrant is a pretty common understanding that I don’t agree with. It does explain the Christian attraction to certain public officials