I've never publicly told the full story of my journey away from Evangelical Christianity until now. I will do it in this post and the ones that follow. It all begins with a preacher named Pokie.
I don't know if we ever truly "land" anywhere. The concept of landing feels the same as the concept of certainty, which of course feels safe. But it also limits us, keeps us in a box, keeps God in a box, and I've thrown out my box. I've made space for whatever way Divine Love/Awareness/God chooses to make themselves known! And so, I've never landed. The safety of certainty is an illusion; we're always free falling! But free falling together feels better than free falling alone.
I get it. For me "landing" was realizing my beliefs had remained 90% steady for the last 5-7 years for the first time ever. My next post will be a bit more about that. But part of what I landed on was being ok with uncertainty. :)
Ya same. I'm actually enjoying wonderment of uncertainty. The only thing I believe with any certainty is that God is Love, and Love IS God, and that everything that was created is good and interconnected. So I see "God" (for lack of a better term?) in everything. I could be wrong of course, but so what? This belief helps me to flourish and love others!
Sounds very like me, my journey has been one of ups and downs, sideways and backwards and, thank God, somehow little steps forward. My one desire is to “know Him”, intimately. That I do believe but so often I feel disillusioned and discouraged by some forms of Christianity but never by God. One day I was pouring my heart out about this in prayer. I felt reminded about the meaning of God first naming Jacob “Israel” and how it means “a people who struggle with God.” I felt a gentle relief over myself and often I remind myself and others who struggle this, we may struggle at times to understand and make sense and “His ways and thoughts are higher than ours” but we struggle forward not giving up, sometimes when life throws a curveball and we’re going “Jesus, what just happened, what’s this about Lord help me here!” We are still just trying to understand Him and learn that His ways are often not ours. I agree there is always something to learn from all the Bible stories, Jesus told stories to demonstrate a principle, a way different and often paradoxical to our broken way of thinking and seeing things. Not to be turned into a simple set of does and don’ts but to help us understand we are going to need Him, need the Holy Spirit’s help we were not meant to do it on our own. So Joe, welcome to Israel! Gods people who (have) and struggle WITH Him. And above all I love your heart, to see others healed by and through Him and somehow using us awkward, stumbling people in the process.
Now I'm thinking I've lived in a parallel universe, I see so much of my story in yours, minus the cool job/gigs part, ha ha. From childhood identity as a young pastor poster-child to layers upon layers of painful stripping of that identity. I now identify as a Christian mystic because I'm really good with God and we talk (ish) but I'm also deeply comfortable with ALL of the questions and love the wonder of them, the mystical agrees with my created nature. When I became a Hospice Chaplain post-covid, the BEST job I've ever had and can't wait to do it again, is when I became fully convinced that there wasn't a hell. At the point of transition, there was never experiences of fires and torment etc., rather, the room would be mystically filled with grace and love when (I guess God) would reach over the veil and receive a soul. Like the tangible feeling of perfect love every time, and I've experienced it hundreds of times with really seedy characters, the ones we assumed hell awaited. Nope, my job was simply to make the introduction in the transition and the rest is mystery. Mystery I'm comfortable with. What I'm UNCOMFORTABLE with is being vulnerable enough to go on this journey with y'all, ha ha. So many scabs to pick, putting my big boy pants on I suppose. Thanks for honoring us with your story, brother, I promise to be brave. ;-)
I have always loved your writing and perspective and honesty, Chris. I would love to hear more about your hospice work… I hope you get to do more of that soon!
Joe, I've never had the chance to tell you this in person and for that I deeply regret it. One day at VCC a long time ago, you said, in public, that you questioned faith, or God, or the Bible, or something like that. It hit me like a sledgehammer. I was born and raised Catholic, and at the time I was even teaching Renew to bring folks back to the faith. We DID NOT question faith. Then, when things happened in the church, I really doubted my faith. I had just gotten out of the Army and you saying that you did question it, out loud, in public, took crazy strength! It is the moment I point to when I say I am a Christian. I attended VCC for over 20 years brought my wife in, and raised 2 great kids there. I still have more questions than answers, but I doubt I'll ever be able to express the impact you had on my life and my family. Thank you for allowing me to follow you here and thank you for not judging me.
Brian, thank you so much for taking the time to tell me that. I'm happy I was able to connect with you back then and happier we can continue the conversation now on here.
I always enjoy reading your writings, Joe. We're getting too old to live someone else's story. The older I get the less I care about absolute dogma, and the more concerned I am about compassion and empathy. Your journey definitely resonates with me, and I hope others find comfort in your story.
Joe, I read your entire story with great interest and curiosity. Sadly, I've read many like yours, and I'm convinced there are millions of others not yet written, other than within many hearts and lives. The struggle is real. I've experienced it somewhat, although my story looks quite different. And that's because, as a 12-year-old, for whatever reason unknown to me, God decided to douse me with the Holy Spirit right in the middle of the most conservative Baptist church in the county (who didn't believe in such a thing). My life was radically changed.
Then the questions began. But they were never about God's existence or that Jesus was who He said He was. They were about all the inconsistencies between what I read in the Bible and what I saw played out in my little small-town church, community, and home life.
I exited the church as a teenager out of frustration, only to realize in my early 20s that I was miserable. I had experienced something more real and tangible than I could explain years earlier, and quite frankly, it had NOTHING to do with church or practices or religion of any kind.
So I screamed at God one morning while on my way to work and said, "If you don't connect me with others who know You like I do, then forget it. I'm not ever coming back. I'll just keep living the miserable life I've been living 'cause I'm done with all the religious garbage."
He answered that prayer in remarkable fashion. And it set me on a path that sounds somewhat like yours. I moved from Texas to Virginia to pursue a music ministry and a call of God on my life.
But the wheels fell off again two years after becoming a worship leader of a nondenominational, Charismatic church. I was exhausted and burned out.
When I again called out to God, do you know what He had the audacity to tell me? "Go buy a bicycle!" What? Are you kidding me? Don't you want me to get up an hour earlier to pray or fast or something spiritual?
Nope! Instead, He said to get away from it all. Mathew 11:28-30 became my life: "Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” That's the Message Bible translation.
I'm not preaching Joe. I'm telling you straight up how I've struggled with the same things you and millions of others have. But in my case, it was from a position of knowing Him so intimately, yet not finding others in the institutional religious complex who had a clue what I was talking about or knew Him in the same way.
Talk about confusing. It took several more years, but I survived, and now I'm thriving and living in peace. Oh, my life certainly isn't perfect. I have health issues and stuff like everyone else.
But so what? Like you, I feel it's "my deal" to share my story. To listen to people like you. And give hope to people who want so much to believe in a God Who exists and loves them in stark contrast to the life-draining abuses of a religious system that only screams "give me more!"
If you notice, my short bio here says I'm a not-your-average Jesus follower (among other things). THIS is, in part, why I describe myself that way.
Thanks for listening. And thanks for sharing your story. May it encourage others who have come to a dead end and who are wrestling with so many doubts and questions of their own.
Sharon! What a gift to share your story with me and the others who will read it here. Thank you so much. I can only imagine what it would have been like to have those intense early experiences. Thank you for talking the time to share with us.
Yes, Sharon. Encounter with the Living God is simply everything. Praying for you Joe and for all who read this comment section. That belief would cease to be about religion. That God would visit His sons and daughters in a fresh way, and call them home. To His lap. To His chest.
Thanks for sharing, Joe! This was great to read. I especially liked this part: "I have no desire to get you to believe what I believe. I earned my beliefs by asking questions. You can’t have mine. You have to earn your beliefs the hard way." This is great advice. It reminds me of a quote I can't seem to find now where a spiritual teacher said he had no desire to collect followers. He wanted to give people the ability to think for themselves and then send them off on their way to find their own path and their own truths.
Best wishes and lots of love to all seekers! (And just to be clear I'm not leaving anyone out: everyone on this planet is a seeker).
Some like minded friends of mine have an expression about searching for truth—we call it “digging your own well”. You can’t appreciate, learn from, own your life giving answers if someone else asks & answers them for you. We all need to be “digging our own wells”. And the freedom that comes with not having to supply the answers for others is life changing!
Has anyone here read James Fowler’s book “The Stages of Faith?” It’s old but based on empirical research. I think it’s helpful to understand how faith develops over our lives. I came across it many years ago and used to teach it in my philosophy & worldview courses. Look it up if you’re interested. Many evangelicals get stuck in Stages 3 & 4 because of environmental factors.
So so so good and SO important! I admire your authenticity and that you've chosen to be a safe space for people and their questions. I hope to do the same....again not because I have all the answers but because I've had (and have) so many questions. Nice work friend.
Obviously you’ll explain your journey more in future updates, but I’m so curious as to what made you want to stay “christian” at all? Other than hoping to maintain some part of the identity you’d grown up with? I assume there is some core of belief that is looking for a more specific incarnation to fill? I’ve personally been fascinated and attached to the person of Jesus and his character and way of being, and that’s kept me looking for truth in this area.
Also, unrelated, as a nuclear physicist I think the tower of babel story makes a couple of good points. I can think of one particularly dangerous “tower” we’ve built in the last century that lends too much power to the hands of people. We’ve always held sway over earth in some ways, but the power to destroy most of terrestrial creation isn’t one I think we were meant to posses. Although I assume it’s a lesson in itself, so maybe “meant” is the wrong word.
It's probably more accurate to say I quietly left Christianity and Theism for a few years, but came back. Primarily for the person of Jesus and to root my mysticism in something more ancient that my own experiences.
Certainly understand where you are coming from. After nearly 50 years in organized religion, my wife and I have been deconstructing and reconstructing for several years. Always glad to find others going through the same thing.
Anne Rice wrote an article in 2010 called "'Today I Quit Being A Christian". Rice says since this decision, she has a "new freedom to confess my fears, my doubts, my pain, my conflicts, my alienation." I remember reading this article and saying yeah, that's me too. And now Joe it's your turn to give people permission to doubt, question and discover. Here's to never landing yet being loved in spite of that.
And then in the early 2000s she got religion again, after the death of her husband. I have also always been a seeker, although my formative years were spent in a heavily evangelical environment. I was really struggling with doubts and confusion and in a backhanded way it was her books, especially “Memnoch the Devil”. So I emailed her, and for a wonder she wrote me back and told me that she wasn’t writing vampire books anymore (and even requested they be pulled off shelves) bc she had returned to her catholic faith and was writing books about Jesus. I read the first one and it was amazing.
I have always struggled with “God the Father” and always identified very strongly with Mary Magdalene. I have studied Wicca and all Goddess centered religions and I am now convinced that they are all the same story. Then I found a pastor with the most beautiful Christ centered message. And I have found my way back to Christ, although it still feels very fragile and tentative
Thank you all for sharing your stories. They are greatly appreciated and helpful!! Blessed be…….
I've always enjoyed your storytelling and all that you have done. I remember you coming on to VCC and I've always enjoyed your preaching/storytelling. I was very sad when you left.
I believe we will always be working on ourselves. I also believe we need to be a little easier on ourselves. I'm glad you are freeing your mind getting your story out and doing what feels right to you. I've followed you this long and look forward to whatever you have next.
I could not love you more or be more happy for you to share your story in this way. I’m here for it. ❤️
Love you too. :)
I don't know if we ever truly "land" anywhere. The concept of landing feels the same as the concept of certainty, which of course feels safe. But it also limits us, keeps us in a box, keeps God in a box, and I've thrown out my box. I've made space for whatever way Divine Love/Awareness/God chooses to make themselves known! And so, I've never landed. The safety of certainty is an illusion; we're always free falling! But free falling together feels better than free falling alone.
I get it. For me "landing" was realizing my beliefs had remained 90% steady for the last 5-7 years for the first time ever. My next post will be a bit more about that. But part of what I landed on was being ok with uncertainty. :)
Ya same. I'm actually enjoying wonderment of uncertainty. The only thing I believe with any certainty is that God is Love, and Love IS God, and that everything that was created is good and interconnected. So I see "God" (for lack of a better term?) in everything. I could be wrong of course, but so what? This belief helps me to flourish and love others!
What. you. said!
😊
Sounds very like me, my journey has been one of ups and downs, sideways and backwards and, thank God, somehow little steps forward. My one desire is to “know Him”, intimately. That I do believe but so often I feel disillusioned and discouraged by some forms of Christianity but never by God. One day I was pouring my heart out about this in prayer. I felt reminded about the meaning of God first naming Jacob “Israel” and how it means “a people who struggle with God.” I felt a gentle relief over myself and often I remind myself and others who struggle this, we may struggle at times to understand and make sense and “His ways and thoughts are higher than ours” but we struggle forward not giving up, sometimes when life throws a curveball and we’re going “Jesus, what just happened, what’s this about Lord help me here!” We are still just trying to understand Him and learn that His ways are often not ours. I agree there is always something to learn from all the Bible stories, Jesus told stories to demonstrate a principle, a way different and often paradoxical to our broken way of thinking and seeing things. Not to be turned into a simple set of does and don’ts but to help us understand we are going to need Him, need the Holy Spirit’s help we were not meant to do it on our own. So Joe, welcome to Israel! Gods people who (have) and struggle WITH Him. And above all I love your heart, to see others healed by and through Him and somehow using us awkward, stumbling people in the process.
Pete Enns wrote a good book called, “The Sin Of Certainty”
Now I'm thinking I've lived in a parallel universe, I see so much of my story in yours, minus the cool job/gigs part, ha ha. From childhood identity as a young pastor poster-child to layers upon layers of painful stripping of that identity. I now identify as a Christian mystic because I'm really good with God and we talk (ish) but I'm also deeply comfortable with ALL of the questions and love the wonder of them, the mystical agrees with my created nature. When I became a Hospice Chaplain post-covid, the BEST job I've ever had and can't wait to do it again, is when I became fully convinced that there wasn't a hell. At the point of transition, there was never experiences of fires and torment etc., rather, the room would be mystically filled with grace and love when (I guess God) would reach over the veil and receive a soul. Like the tangible feeling of perfect love every time, and I've experienced it hundreds of times with really seedy characters, the ones we assumed hell awaited. Nope, my job was simply to make the introduction in the transition and the rest is mystery. Mystery I'm comfortable with. What I'm UNCOMFORTABLE with is being vulnerable enough to go on this journey with y'all, ha ha. So many scabs to pick, putting my big boy pants on I suppose. Thanks for honoring us with your story, brother, I promise to be brave. ;-)
Well I saw this after we had beers today. Honored to do life with you online and in the real world.
I have always loved your writing and perspective and honesty, Chris. I would love to hear more about your hospice work… I hope you get to do more of that soon!
Joe, I've never had the chance to tell you this in person and for that I deeply regret it. One day at VCC a long time ago, you said, in public, that you questioned faith, or God, or the Bible, or something like that. It hit me like a sledgehammer. I was born and raised Catholic, and at the time I was even teaching Renew to bring folks back to the faith. We DID NOT question faith. Then, when things happened in the church, I really doubted my faith. I had just gotten out of the Army and you saying that you did question it, out loud, in public, took crazy strength! It is the moment I point to when I say I am a Christian. I attended VCC for over 20 years brought my wife in, and raised 2 great kids there. I still have more questions than answers, but I doubt I'll ever be able to express the impact you had on my life and my family. Thank you for allowing me to follow you here and thank you for not judging me.
Brian, thank you so much for taking the time to tell me that. I'm happy I was able to connect with you back then and happier we can continue the conversation now on here.
Fenech is legit, we've talked about you behind your back quite a few times.
hahaha
I always enjoy reading your writings, Joe. We're getting too old to live someone else's story. The older I get the less I care about absolute dogma, and the more concerned I am about compassion and empathy. Your journey definitely resonates with me, and I hope others find comfort in your story.
Thank you, Jim! Maybe more of us are aging gracefully after all :)
Joe, I read your entire story with great interest and curiosity. Sadly, I've read many like yours, and I'm convinced there are millions of others not yet written, other than within many hearts and lives. The struggle is real. I've experienced it somewhat, although my story looks quite different. And that's because, as a 12-year-old, for whatever reason unknown to me, God decided to douse me with the Holy Spirit right in the middle of the most conservative Baptist church in the county (who didn't believe in such a thing). My life was radically changed.
Then the questions began. But they were never about God's existence or that Jesus was who He said He was. They were about all the inconsistencies between what I read in the Bible and what I saw played out in my little small-town church, community, and home life.
I exited the church as a teenager out of frustration, only to realize in my early 20s that I was miserable. I had experienced something more real and tangible than I could explain years earlier, and quite frankly, it had NOTHING to do with church or practices or religion of any kind.
So I screamed at God one morning while on my way to work and said, "If you don't connect me with others who know You like I do, then forget it. I'm not ever coming back. I'll just keep living the miserable life I've been living 'cause I'm done with all the religious garbage."
He answered that prayer in remarkable fashion. And it set me on a path that sounds somewhat like yours. I moved from Texas to Virginia to pursue a music ministry and a call of God on my life.
But the wheels fell off again two years after becoming a worship leader of a nondenominational, Charismatic church. I was exhausted and burned out.
When I again called out to God, do you know what He had the audacity to tell me? "Go buy a bicycle!" What? Are you kidding me? Don't you want me to get up an hour earlier to pray or fast or something spiritual?
Nope! Instead, He said to get away from it all. Mathew 11:28-30 became my life: "Are you tired? Worn out? Burned out on religion? Come to me. Get away with me and you’ll recover your life. I’ll show you how to take a real rest. Walk with me and work with me—watch how I do it. Learn the unforced rhythms of grace. I won’t lay anything heavy or ill-fitting on you. Keep company with me and you’ll learn to live freely and lightly.” That's the Message Bible translation.
I'm not preaching Joe. I'm telling you straight up how I've struggled with the same things you and millions of others have. But in my case, it was from a position of knowing Him so intimately, yet not finding others in the institutional religious complex who had a clue what I was talking about or knew Him in the same way.
Talk about confusing. It took several more years, but I survived, and now I'm thriving and living in peace. Oh, my life certainly isn't perfect. I have health issues and stuff like everyone else.
But so what? Like you, I feel it's "my deal" to share my story. To listen to people like you. And give hope to people who want so much to believe in a God Who exists and loves them in stark contrast to the life-draining abuses of a religious system that only screams "give me more!"
If you notice, my short bio here says I'm a not-your-average Jesus follower (among other things). THIS is, in part, why I describe myself that way.
Thanks for listening. And thanks for sharing your story. May it encourage others who have come to a dead end and who are wrestling with so many doubts and questions of their own.
Sharon! What a gift to share your story with me and the others who will read it here. Thank you so much. I can only imagine what it would have been like to have those intense early experiences. Thank you for talking the time to share with us.
Thank you for allowing me to share it and for creating this space for the purposes you have. You are a brave man! 😄
Yes, Sharon. Encounter with the Living God is simply everything. Praying for you Joe and for all who read this comment section. That belief would cease to be about religion. That God would visit His sons and daughters in a fresh way, and call them home. To His lap. To His chest.
Thanks for sharing, Joe! This was great to read. I especially liked this part: "I have no desire to get you to believe what I believe. I earned my beliefs by asking questions. You can’t have mine. You have to earn your beliefs the hard way." This is great advice. It reminds me of a quote I can't seem to find now where a spiritual teacher said he had no desire to collect followers. He wanted to give people the ability to think for themselves and then send them off on their way to find their own path and their own truths.
Best wishes and lots of love to all seekers! (And just to be clear I'm not leaving anyone out: everyone on this planet is a seeker).
Some like minded friends of mine have an expression about searching for truth—we call it “digging your own well”. You can’t appreciate, learn from, own your life giving answers if someone else asks & answers them for you. We all need to be “digging our own wells”. And the freedom that comes with not having to supply the answers for others is life changing!
Love it
Has anyone here read James Fowler’s book “The Stages of Faith?” It’s old but based on empirical research. I think it’s helpful to understand how faith develops over our lives. I came across it many years ago and used to teach it in my philosophy & worldview courses. Look it up if you’re interested. Many evangelicals get stuck in Stages 3 & 4 because of environmental factors.
So so so good and SO important! I admire your authenticity and that you've chosen to be a safe space for people and their questions. I hope to do the same....again not because I have all the answers but because I've had (and have) so many questions. Nice work friend.
Thank you!
Obviously you’ll explain your journey more in future updates, but I’m so curious as to what made you want to stay “christian” at all? Other than hoping to maintain some part of the identity you’d grown up with? I assume there is some core of belief that is looking for a more specific incarnation to fill? I’ve personally been fascinated and attached to the person of Jesus and his character and way of being, and that’s kept me looking for truth in this area.
Also, unrelated, as a nuclear physicist I think the tower of babel story makes a couple of good points. I can think of one particularly dangerous “tower” we’ve built in the last century that lends too much power to the hands of people. We’ve always held sway over earth in some ways, but the power to destroy most of terrestrial creation isn’t one I think we were meant to posses. Although I assume it’s a lesson in itself, so maybe “meant” is the wrong word.
Hi Ryan! Yes I talk about it some in my second post here - https://deconstructedpastor.substack.com/p/i-hate-labelsbut-im-an-agnostic-mystic
It's probably more accurate to say I quietly left Christianity and Theism for a few years, but came back. Primarily for the person of Jesus and to root my mysticism in something more ancient that my own experiences.
Certainly understand where you are coming from. After nearly 50 years in organized religion, my wife and I have been deconstructing and reconstructing for several years. Always glad to find others going through the same thing.
Thanks for joining us, Michael. Glad you're here.
Anne Rice wrote an article in 2010 called "'Today I Quit Being A Christian". Rice says since this decision, she has a "new freedom to confess my fears, my doubts, my pain, my conflicts, my alienation." I remember reading this article and saying yeah, that's me too. And now Joe it's your turn to give people permission to doubt, question and discover. Here's to never landing yet being loved in spite of that.
Thanks old friend. Well not that you're old. You get it.
And then in the early 2000s she got religion again, after the death of her husband. I have also always been a seeker, although my formative years were spent in a heavily evangelical environment. I was really struggling with doubts and confusion and in a backhanded way it was her books, especially “Memnoch the Devil”. So I emailed her, and for a wonder she wrote me back and told me that she wasn’t writing vampire books anymore (and even requested they be pulled off shelves) bc she had returned to her catholic faith and was writing books about Jesus. I read the first one and it was amazing.
I have always struggled with “God the Father” and always identified very strongly with Mary Magdalene. I have studied Wicca and all Goddess centered religions and I am now convinced that they are all the same story. Then I found a pastor with the most beautiful Christ centered message. And I have found my way back to Christ, although it still feels very fragile and tentative
Thank you all for sharing your stories. They are greatly appreciated and helpful!! Blessed be…….
Beautiful words from our beautiful friend. ❤️
I’m so glad you’ve chosen to share your story, Joe. It resonates with me.
Thank you, Sandy!
I've always enjoyed your storytelling and all that you have done. I remember you coming on to VCC and I've always enjoyed your preaching/storytelling. I was very sad when you left.
I believe we will always be working on ourselves. I also believe we need to be a little easier on ourselves. I'm glad you are freeing your mind getting your story out and doing what feels right to you. I've followed you this long and look forward to whatever you have next.
God bless you, Joe
Thank you so much, Sandy!
GAH!! So good and so relatable. Thank you!
:)
Yeah, what Debbie said. Well, except for the love part. I’m guessing she loves you more. 💕
Thank you!