From the bottom of my heart...thank you! Reading these words this morning, allowed me to breath out. I always have a lot of thoughts going through my head about stuff but never can put them into a coherent sentence. I blame it on my age and hormones running amok (lol). I'm sure it will take more time for me to rid myself of the shame and feelings of being a failure when it comes to Christianity. But, I will continue to give myself grace. It truly helps knowing I am not alone and I have you and your experiences and your thoughts to help me process through my own. Happy Birthday! Have the BEST day!
Same, Jen. Although, I never had been scared of hell. I was fortunate to have been saved in love and not in fear. But, Joe’s articulation is very helpful!!
I was a weird child. I remember heading to our church library to read about hell and all the different views on it. I stumbled across the doctrine of annihilationism when I was 15 years old. I held that belief for many years because the idea of eternal punishment violated one universal principle of retributive justice: the law of proportionality (lex proportionalitatis). It is not only a moral principle but a mathematical principle! It is woven into the fabric of the universe in ethics, laws, mathematics, and physics. Even the Bible articulates it in the principle of lex talionis—the law of retaliation, whereby a punishment resembles the offense committed in kind and degree (aka, "an eye for an eye.) Yes, at 14 years old, I was worried about this stuff. I needed therapy.
Punishing someone for an infinite amount of time for a finite period of wrongdoing (e.g., 70 years of life) never seemed right. The "punishment did not fit the crime." It also did not appear that an unbelieving grandmother would suffer the same eternal fate as Adolf Hitler or fans of the Pittsburgh Steelers. (There was a distribution of punishment problem also!) Grandma and Hitler are not in the same moral category.
But then, another aspect of proportionality did not make sense to me. And this one might be considered borderline heresy. Though Christ's suffering (his passion) was severe, it was finite. He suffered for six hours, according to the gospel. If proportionality is truly a universal law of justice and reflects the nature of God, then how does Christ's finite (six hours) suffering on the cross remove an infinite punishment?
When I read that you didn’t believe in hell in an earlier post, I was curious to say the least about how you’re still a Christian. This makes so much sense, your argument is solid to me, I especially thank you for giving the readers the freedom to think of what the afterlife could be. Do you have any podcasts/books I could get into to learn more about what early christians thought about life after death and Revelation?
Thank you! I like NT Wright's Surprised By Hope as an account of the earliest Christians views. I don't think they are my personal views, but he makes a compelling case for what the early Christians believed. He also has a new Revelation commentary but I haven't read it.
I've often considered hell (as it is described) as incompatible with an All-Loving, Just, Omniscient God, and if any of God's traits get us there, justice is the closest, but God is also the All-Forgiving, The Most-Merciful, The Lord of Infinite Grace, The Most-Bountiful, The Most-Generous. All of these skew Justice toward a more pleasant outcome.
But even if there was only Justice. How can 100ish years of a despicable life only be balanced with an eternity of punishment and torment. And why? To what end? What's the goal here? ... And if God is omniscient, why do that? True omniscience means that God knows everything. This includes how it feels to be that person. Why would God do that without any end goal (also, think about that, the next time you consider harming someone).
I think of hell as a state. I sometimes think that the way it might play out after death is this. You've lived your life not considering or caring about God or trying to learn more about Her. You may not even disbelieve, you just don't care. You come to the end of your life and are presented with the reality of God. It's undeniable. God is real, and everyone wants to be close to God. But you realize that you don't know God. You never became friends. You became aware of all the opportunities you were given to visit God, before you knew just how famous and wonderful and deserving of that fame He was. Now, you feel completely unworthy to be in Her presence. It's like that movie star you've come to love but could never see yourself being friends with, because, who are you to them? At least from your perspective, you're nothing and don't deserve to have a relationship with them.
Can you imagine how hard that must be?
I've come to believe that part of living in this world is having the opportunity to not be made fully aware of God's splendour, so that we can approach. God's currently just that boy or girl we grew up with up the street. Totally approachable. We are able to be friends with God and have a relationship. When we die, we'll realize just how wonderful God is, but if we've taken the time to have a relationship with Her, perhaps we don't feel worthy, but we aren't afraid to approach either. This is our good friend. The fact that She turned out to really be the King, doesn't change that for us, if anything, we now feel honored to have become friends with the Queen Herself.
I sense that this is our goal and God's goal for us. I think God wants us to be friends with Him, and I think God knows that the situation She put us into is one that allows us to push Him further away, so we've been given some instruction on how to avoid that if we're willing to make an effort.
I sense for most of us, the next world will be better, regardless, but for some of us, there will be some pain and shame involved, at least for a while.
If there truly is no salvation for us, I sense that God would simply end our existence (but I think God knew where we would end up before creating us, so if we were allowed to exist in the first place, then it's likely we weren't hopeless).
We share a birthday and I was so happy to read this piece of writing on my birthday away on vacation 😀! We deconstructed this quite a few years ago but great to revisit, because as you said, this doctrine took some space in my body. Happy birthday 🎂 🥳
This was a great piece. Thank you for taking time to share on your birthday! I read a great book about this, Her Gates Will Never Be Shut by Brad Jersak. It helped sort out all the confusion - and still offered so much hope, without dogma and terror.
When I was a kid, we got Sunday school pins based on attendance, so we had to go while we were away, or we wouldn't get our annual pin. We had to have proof, like bulletins or something like that. My pin chain is missing a few links, because church at campgrounds didn't have anything. And my dad was a deacon and a church treasurer. Not enough proof. lol
I am shooketh. Thank you for explaining this. Even in mainstream churches, they don't explain this. And it makes so much sense. Awakening. The fall of Rome. So much sense.
So Joe, how do you reconcile Jesus description of hell in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus? Did Jesus understand the power of story? Did he just make up all the details of torment and separation to scare people into being good? Luke 16:19-31? And what about the other parables of being thrown out into darkness where there will be weeping and nashing of teeth….that doesn’t sound like annihilation or purgatory to me.
Hey man - thanks for the question. I’ll tell you what I personally think is going on.
Most parables make one clear point. The story of the rich man and Lazarus wasn’t about hell—it was about justice. Jesus was riffing on a well-known folk tale from the time. Versions of it existed in Egyptian and Jewish tradition—rich man dies, poor man is elevated, chasm between them, etc. He was using familiar imagery to make a moral point, not describe the afterlife.
Same with the “weeping and gnashing” lines—apocalyptic language meant to shake people awake, not lay out eternal geography.
If passages like this point you toward a different belief than me on hell, I get it. But that’s my best current understanding of what’s going on in those parables. I had this stuff in my article but felt it was getting too long so I I removed some things before posting it.
Thank you Joe for this brief history of hell. It has helped clarify a number of questions I have pondered, including what on earth(or heaven) Revelation is all about. The idea that some of my family members might be excluded from heaven was a sizeable worry for years until I read Richard Rohr's The Universal Christ. Then the exclusionary messages taught by the church didn't make sense any more. If I am correct, the Orthodox Church has never embraced the idea of hell. Much of what we as Christians are taught to believe is constructed and reconstructed to fit the culture of the times. I have found myself routinely returning back to the foundational teachings of Jesus to help avoid overwhelm.
Good article. This enforces what I have come to believe. Obviously, growing up in the church, I constantly heard the need to be saved so I won't end up in hell. Over my deconstruction, I began having questions about that and have pretty much come to the same conclusions as you. Obviously, we cannot prove one way or another what happens after death, but by faith, I believe I will be in the presence of the great Spirit of Love (God), and wherever that is will be heaven to me.
Happy birthday Joe! I really appreciated this post today. I dropped my belief in a vengeful hell a few years ago……but as you mentioned that little voice chimes in “what if you’re wrong” every so often. I appreciate the extra intellectual ammo for fighting that mind war next time.
From the bottom of my heart...thank you! Reading these words this morning, allowed me to breath out. I always have a lot of thoughts going through my head about stuff but never can put them into a coherent sentence. I blame it on my age and hormones running amok (lol). I'm sure it will take more time for me to rid myself of the shame and feelings of being a failure when it comes to Christianity. But, I will continue to give myself grace. It truly helps knowing I am not alone and I have you and your experiences and your thoughts to help me process through my own. Happy Birthday! Have the BEST day!
Amok, amok, amok!! 😂
Same, Jen. Although, I never had been scared of hell. I was fortunate to have been saved in love and not in fear. But, Joe’s articulation is very helpful!!
Thank you, Jen! Hope you breathe easy today. :)
I was a weird child. I remember heading to our church library to read about hell and all the different views on it. I stumbled across the doctrine of annihilationism when I was 15 years old. I held that belief for many years because the idea of eternal punishment violated one universal principle of retributive justice: the law of proportionality (lex proportionalitatis). It is not only a moral principle but a mathematical principle! It is woven into the fabric of the universe in ethics, laws, mathematics, and physics. Even the Bible articulates it in the principle of lex talionis—the law of retaliation, whereby a punishment resembles the offense committed in kind and degree (aka, "an eye for an eye.) Yes, at 14 years old, I was worried about this stuff. I needed therapy.
Punishing someone for an infinite amount of time for a finite period of wrongdoing (e.g., 70 years of life) never seemed right. The "punishment did not fit the crime." It also did not appear that an unbelieving grandmother would suffer the same eternal fate as Adolf Hitler or fans of the Pittsburgh Steelers. (There was a distribution of punishment problem also!) Grandma and Hitler are not in the same moral category.
But then, another aspect of proportionality did not make sense to me. And this one might be considered borderline heresy. Though Christ's suffering (his passion) was severe, it was finite. He suffered for six hours, according to the gospel. If proportionality is truly a universal law of justice and reflects the nature of God, then how does Christ's finite (six hours) suffering on the cross remove an infinite punishment?
Joe, happy birthday.
I love all of this - the Steelers reference, gramma and Hitler...but mostly I like the first sentence. :)
As a child I was contemplating hell & watching WWF Superstars of Wrestling. Now I’m heavily medicated!
When I read that you didn’t believe in hell in an earlier post, I was curious to say the least about how you’re still a Christian. This makes so much sense, your argument is solid to me, I especially thank you for giving the readers the freedom to think of what the afterlife could be. Do you have any podcasts/books I could get into to learn more about what early christians thought about life after death and Revelation?
Thank you! I like NT Wright's Surprised By Hope as an account of the earliest Christians views. I don't think they are my personal views, but he makes a compelling case for what the early Christians believed. He also has a new Revelation commentary but I haven't read it.
I've often considered hell (as it is described) as incompatible with an All-Loving, Just, Omniscient God, and if any of God's traits get us there, justice is the closest, but God is also the All-Forgiving, The Most-Merciful, The Lord of Infinite Grace, The Most-Bountiful, The Most-Generous. All of these skew Justice toward a more pleasant outcome.
But even if there was only Justice. How can 100ish years of a despicable life only be balanced with an eternity of punishment and torment. And why? To what end? What's the goal here? ... And if God is omniscient, why do that? True omniscience means that God knows everything. This includes how it feels to be that person. Why would God do that without any end goal (also, think about that, the next time you consider harming someone).
I think of hell as a state. I sometimes think that the way it might play out after death is this. You've lived your life not considering or caring about God or trying to learn more about Her. You may not even disbelieve, you just don't care. You come to the end of your life and are presented with the reality of God. It's undeniable. God is real, and everyone wants to be close to God. But you realize that you don't know God. You never became friends. You became aware of all the opportunities you were given to visit God, before you knew just how famous and wonderful and deserving of that fame He was. Now, you feel completely unworthy to be in Her presence. It's like that movie star you've come to love but could never see yourself being friends with, because, who are you to them? At least from your perspective, you're nothing and don't deserve to have a relationship with them.
Can you imagine how hard that must be?
I've come to believe that part of living in this world is having the opportunity to not be made fully aware of God's splendour, so that we can approach. God's currently just that boy or girl we grew up with up the street. Totally approachable. We are able to be friends with God and have a relationship. When we die, we'll realize just how wonderful God is, but if we've taken the time to have a relationship with Her, perhaps we don't feel worthy, but we aren't afraid to approach either. This is our good friend. The fact that She turned out to really be the King, doesn't change that for us, if anything, we now feel honored to have become friends with the Queen Herself.
I sense that this is our goal and God's goal for us. I think God wants us to be friends with Him, and I think God knows that the situation She put us into is one that allows us to push Him further away, so we've been given some instruction on how to avoid that if we're willing to make an effort.
I sense for most of us, the next world will be better, regardless, but for some of us, there will be some pain and shame involved, at least for a while.
If there truly is no salvation for us, I sense that God would simply end our existence (but I think God knew where we would end up before creating us, so if we were allowed to exist in the first place, then it's likely we weren't hopeless).
Thank you for this thoughtful reply! It reminded me partially of CS Lewis' Great Divorce.
I grew up literally immersed in theology and was today years old when I learned this. What the gehenna.
:)
We share a birthday and I was so happy to read this piece of writing on my birthday away on vacation 😀! We deconstructed this quite a few years ago but great to revisit, because as you said, this doctrine took some space in my body. Happy birthday 🎂 🥳
Happy Birthday!!!
This was a great piece. Thank you for taking time to share on your birthday! I read a great book about this, Her Gates Will Never Be Shut by Brad Jersak. It helped sort out all the confusion - and still offered so much hope, without dogma and terror.
Also laughed quite loudly at the end where you try to sell an indulgence 🤣🤣
😜
Happy Birthday!
When I was a kid, we got Sunday school pins based on attendance, so we had to go while we were away, or we wouldn't get our annual pin. We had to have proof, like bulletins or something like that. My pin chain is missing a few links, because church at campgrounds didn't have anything. And my dad was a deacon and a church treasurer. Not enough proof. lol
I am shooketh. Thank you for explaining this. Even in mainstream churches, they don't explain this. And it makes so much sense. Awakening. The fall of Rome. So much sense.
Thanks, Denise
Thank you!
🙏🏼
So Joe, how do you reconcile Jesus description of hell in his parable of the rich man and Lazarus? Did Jesus understand the power of story? Did he just make up all the details of torment and separation to scare people into being good? Luke 16:19-31? And what about the other parables of being thrown out into darkness where there will be weeping and nashing of teeth….that doesn’t sound like annihilation or purgatory to me.
Hey man - thanks for the question. I’ll tell you what I personally think is going on.
Most parables make one clear point. The story of the rich man and Lazarus wasn’t about hell—it was about justice. Jesus was riffing on a well-known folk tale from the time. Versions of it existed in Egyptian and Jewish tradition—rich man dies, poor man is elevated, chasm between them, etc. He was using familiar imagery to make a moral point, not describe the afterlife.
Same with the “weeping and gnashing” lines—apocalyptic language meant to shake people awake, not lay out eternal geography.
If passages like this point you toward a different belief than me on hell, I get it. But that’s my best current understanding of what’s going on in those parables. I had this stuff in my article but felt it was getting too long so I I removed some things before posting it.
Thank you Joe for this brief history of hell. It has helped clarify a number of questions I have pondered, including what on earth(or heaven) Revelation is all about. The idea that some of my family members might be excluded from heaven was a sizeable worry for years until I read Richard Rohr's The Universal Christ. Then the exclusionary messages taught by the church didn't make sense any more. If I am correct, the Orthodox Church has never embraced the idea of hell. Much of what we as Christians are taught to believe is constructed and reconstructed to fit the culture of the times. I have found myself routinely returning back to the foundational teachings of Jesus to help avoid overwhelm.
❤️
Thank you! The teaching on Hell has caused so much damage. I am glad you and others are correcting it.
:)
Good article. This enforces what I have come to believe. Obviously, growing up in the church, I constantly heard the need to be saved so I won't end up in hell. Over my deconstruction, I began having questions about that and have pretty much come to the same conclusions as you. Obviously, we cannot prove one way or another what happens after death, but by faith, I believe I will be in the presence of the great Spirit of Love (God), and wherever that is will be heaven to me.
I like that.
Thanks for this good reminder.
❤️
Great piece. Thank you for sharing. (And happy birthday!)
:)
Happy birthday Joe! I really appreciated this post today. I dropped my belief in a vengeful hell a few years ago……but as you mentioned that little voice chimes in “what if you’re wrong” every so often. I appreciate the extra intellectual ammo for fighting that mind war next time.
Hope you have a good birthday, dude.
Thank you, my friend!